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Friday, September 25, 2009
"The world is waiting, pregnant with the possibility of another future than
wars and rumors of wars." - Shane Claiborne
Is this true? Does history or the Bible lead us to believe that there could be a future on this planet where war is a thing of the past? Or is Claiborne...


Chris A said...

I believe an age without war on earth is fast approaching. And I believe the Bible talks about it in explicit terms. Revelation 21:

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

I think some people have the impression that this passage is speaking of eternity in heaven. Not so. This is speaking of the literal earthly reign of Christ of earth. Notice that the city is "coming down from God out of heaven", indicating that it is descending to earth. There are many other biblical references we could point to in order to firmly establish this.

Darius said...

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Yes, there will be an age with no war AFTER Christ returns. But not prior.

Chris A said...

Yeah, I was wondering where I'd heard that name "Shane Claiborne" before and I looked him up. I don't know the full context of his statement, but it is probably safe to say we may not exactly agree. I remember someone putting something about him on ZFT once, I think.

Funny thing is, when I first read an article about him a couple years ago, I showed it to a pastor acquaintance of mine who happens to be friends with him. (I didn't know that at the time.) He holds a lot of the same views about social justice and whatnot. He tried to start a similar work here, but I don't think it has really ever taken off. He asked if I'd come and preach for him sometime. I agreed and then later regretted it. Thankfully, he never mentioned it again so I didn't have to go. And what seemed weird to me is that this acquaintance of mine is a Calvinist who actually once taught Reformed Theology in a university setting. I don't know how you reconcile all that, but whatever.

Darius said...

Here's the context: Claiborne was endorsing a Christian movement that is pushing for complete nuclear disarmament of all nations.

I'm not sure about Claiborne... I keep waiting to see something that clarifies exactly where he is theologically.

Chris A said...

Yeah, I looked it up and you're right about the context - not that I doubted you.

Here is the only scenario in which nuclear disarmament would possibly take place before Christ's return - a New World Order, a global government.

That's what the G-20 is all about. Just listen to what the nations are saying. They're trying to ditch the dollar in favor of a new world reserve currency controlled by a world banking regulatory. We are fast becoming a debtor nation, making true sovereignty nearly impossible for our long-term sustainability as a nation. We are being imploded economically, and we will be nexused into the "global community" where "global citizenship" will be necessary for survival, and people will beg for it to escape the threat of economic depression. I hope I am wrong, but I'm not optimistic. We can see this playing out before our very eyes.

Even Ahmadinejad has been calling for global governance, and he's the poster boy for disarmament.

Steve said...

Not prior.


Ain't a gonna happen 'til our Lord ushers in the New Creation.

Until's hell onearth punctuated by moments of lesser hell on earth.

Chris A said...

Yeah, I agree with you Steve. I was just putting that out there to make the point that a lot of people who are calling for "peace on Earth" are often unwittingly feeding into the prospect of global governance. While nuclear proliferation sounds like a good thing on the surface, the evil beneath it all is the means by which something of this magnitude would be theoretically undertaken. It would require the dissolving of national sovereignty in favor of a central global governing authority.

It is the Tower of Babel all over again - the exaltation of humanity above the concept of nations under God, beginning at the moment nations began to speak the same language of globalism.

Jonathan @ Ferguson in Roseville525 said...

Question: Should we be working for peace in this world, even if we know there will be times of war before Christ returns (assuming this is true)?

Similar Question: Should we be working to end poverty and hunger when we are told that we will "always" have the poor among us?

Darius said...

We should be working to tell people about the Prince of Peace, and we should support political policies that promote reasonable peace. We should NOT expect, as Claiborne appears to, that we will get rid of all wars. Such a utopian view has ALWAYS led to significant evil. When one doesn't live in reality, hell usually follows.

As for poverty, we should work to end absolute poverty (as opposed to relative poverty), and even though we may never succeed completely, we can definitely improve the world in that regard.

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When Helping Hurts: Alleviating Poverty Without Hurting the Poor. . .and Ourselves
The Prodigal God: Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith
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Life Laid Bare: The Survivors in Rwanda Speak
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